SCHWALD, Johann Georg

Notes:

birth to Gustav in Feb 1861....married in Nov 1861

From: dave gudeman Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 3:40 AM
To: Roderick Schwald
Cc: Fred Wehrle
Subject: Schwald lineage

#5 Generation: Johann Georg Schwald was born in Wies on July 19, 1836, to Friedrich (Fritz) Schwald and Anna Maria Flatt. Johann Georg married Maria Barbara Homberger in Wies on November 14, 1861. They had a son, Gustav, on February 15, 1861, out of wedlock. Maria Barbara was born in Wies on November 3, 1837, to Georg Friedrich Homberger and Anna Maria Schlageter(?).

Johann married HOMBERGER, Maria Barbara 14 Nov 1861, Wies, Loerrach, Baden, Germany. Maria (daughter of Living and Living) was born 3 Nov 1837, Wies, Loerrach, Baden, Germany. [Group Sheet]

Notes:

http://www.familysearch.org
JOHANN GEORG SCHWALD
Spouse: MARIA BARBARA HOMBERGER Family
Marriage: 14 NOV 1861 Evangelisch, Wies, Loerrach, Baden
-------------------------------------------------------------
Messages:
Extracted marriage record for locality listed in the record.
Source Information:
Batch No.: Dates: Source Call No.: Type: Printout Call No.: Typ

M936742 1834 - 1895 1189731

1. SCHWALD, Gustav (Homberger) was born 15 Feb 1861, Wies, Loerrach, Baden, Germany.

Notes:

Father shown as Fritz

From: dave gudeman
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 3:40 AM
To: Roderick Schwald
Cc: Fred Wehrle
Subject: Schwald lineage

It is true that you and Dieter Scfwald of Malsburg are related. However, information that Hanno sent me failed to make the connection. Dieter's lineage went back 4 generations and then it hit a snag by omitting generations # 5 and #6 and then jumping to generation #7. The confusion may have been caused by the fact that Gustav Schwald of generation #4 was illegitimate and was born as Gustav Homberger, not as Gustav Schwald. In the event that this confusion has not already been clarified, I submit the following:
#4 Generation: Gustav Schwald (born as Gustav Homberger) was born in Wies on February 15, 1861, to Maria Barbara Homberger, a single woman. Gustav married Carolina Spohn in Wies on May 21, 1885. They had a son, Wilhelm, born in Wies on January 7, 1887. Carolina was born in Wies on October 3, 1860, to Wilhelm Spohn and Maria Katharina Graesslin.
#5 Generation: Johann Georg Schwald was born in Wies on July 19, 1836, to Friedrich (Fritz) Schwald and Anna Maria Flatt. Johann Georg married Maria Barbara Homberger in Wies on November 14, 1861. They had a son, Gustav, on February 15, 1861, out of wedlock. Maria Barbara was born in Wies on November 3, 1837, to Georg Friedrich Homberger and Anna Maria Schlageter(?).
#6 Generation: Friedrich (Fritz) Schwald was born in Fischenberg on December 1, 1809, to Friedrich (Fritz) Schwald and Anna Barbara Homberger. Friedrich married Anna Maria Flatt in Wies on September 9, 1833. They had a son, Johann Georg, in Wies on July 19, 1836. Anna Maria Flatt was a widow of Johann Lenzin of Wies, who died on August 16, 1831.
#7 Generation: Friedrich (Fritz) Schwald was born in Fischenberg on September 13, 1772, to Johann Georg Schwald and Anna Maria Wagner. Friedrich married Anna Barbara Homberger in Wies on February 17, 1801. They had a son, Friedrich,. in Fischenberg on December 1, 1809.

This means that Friedrich (Fritz) Schwald and Anna Barbara Homberger are the common ancestors of you and Dieter.
As it turns out, there were three missing generations rather than two, as stated in Hanno's E-mail.

The foregoing information was obtained from Mormon Micro-films 1189731, 1189732, and 1189733.

From: "dave gudeman"
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002

In Dieter's line, the wife of Friedrich Schwald (1809) was definitely (repeat, definitely) shown in the marriage record in 1833 as Anna Maria Flatt (not Flad) of Wies. In later years, the name Flad is commonally found in the Malsburg records. It appears that the spelling of the name may have gradually permuted from Flatt to Flad. Another possibility (although I seriously doubt it) is that there were two distinct families with similar names.

Note: Anna Maria Flatt was born on August 17, 1810 in Wies. When she married Friedrich in 1833, she was a widow. Her first husband, Johannes Buergin, died in Wies on August 16, 1831.

Friedrich married FLATT, Anna Maria (Flath) 9 Sep 1833, Wies, Loerrach, Baden, Germany. Anna was born 17 Aug 1810, Wies, Loerrach, Baden, Germany. [Group Sheet]

Notes:

From: "dave gudeman"
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002

In Dieter's line, the wife of Friedrich Schwald (1809) was definitely (repeat, definitely)
shown in the marriage record in 1833 as Anna Maria Flatt (not Flad) of Wies.
In later years, the name Flad is commonally found in the Malsburg records.
It appears that the spelling of the name may have gradually permuted from Flatt to Flad.
Another possibility (although I seriously doubt it) is that there were two distinct families with similar names.

Note: Anna Maria Flatt was born on August 17, 1810 in Wies. When she married Friedrich in 1833, she was a widow. Her first husband, Johannes Buergin, died in Wies on August 16, 1831.

familysearch.org

FRIEDERICH SCHWALD
Spouse: ANNA MARIA FLATH
Marriage: 09 SEP 1833 Evangelisch, Wies, Loerrach, Baden
Extracted marriage record for locality listed in the record.
Batch No.: Dates: Source Call No.: Type: Printout Call No.: Typ
M936741 1738 - 1833 1189732 Film NONE

Notes:

http://www.familysearch.org
FRIEDERICH SCHWALD
Spouse: ANNA MARIA FLATH Family
Marriage: 09 SEP 1833 Evangelisch, Wies, Loerrach, Baden
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Messages:
Extracted marriage record for locality listed in the record.-
Source Information:
Batch No.: Dates: Source Call No.: Type: Printout Call No.: Type
M936741 1738 - 1833 1189732 Film NONE

Friedrich married HOMBERGER, Anna Barbara 17 Feb 1801, Wies, Loerrach, Baden, Germany. Anna (daughter of HOMBERGER, Jacob and LAIS, Anna Barbara) was born 17 Jan 1778, Wies, Loerrach, Baden, Germany; died 3 Feb 1852, Wies, Loerrach, Baden, Germany. [Group Sheet]

Notes:

Dates from Fred Wehrle

From: "dave gudeman"
To: "Janet"
Subject: Re: Schwald lineage
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 08:07:50 -0500

It is true that Friedrich Schwald and Anna Barbara Homberger had two
children before they were married, as is shown on Hanno's web-site.
1, Johann Friedrich Schwald, born in Wies on March 4, 1798. (The father was
shown as Friedrich.)
2. Anna Barbara Schwald, born in Wies on May 4, 1800. (The father was shown
as Friz.)
You will notice that they were both born with the Schwald name, quite unusal
for a child who was born out of wedlock to be given the name of the father
rather the mother. It is obvious that it was no secret who the father was,
and Friedrich and Anna Barbara probably had full intentions of marrying
later. I find it interesting that the two children born before the marriage
were born in Wies, the home of Anna Barbara, whereas the eight children born
after the marriage were born in Fischenberg, the home of Friedrich.
(Johannes (1822) was born in Fischenberg, not in Wies as shown on Hanno's
website.) I missed these two children the first time, probably because it
did not occur to me to check for births before the marriage.
It is curious that Hanno lists the two children born before the marriage,
and the first child born after the marriage, and the last child born; but
fails to show the six children born between 1802 and 1822.
It is true that a Frieddich Schwald, a widower, married a Barbara
Doerflingerin in 1828, as shown on Hanno's website. But this Friedrich was
not the Friedrich who was married to Anna Barbara Homberger, your ancestor.
Anna Barbara did not die until February 3, 1852 in Fischenberg.
Hanno lists over 16,000 names on his web site, and I wonder where he picks
up all this information. He is causing a lot of confusion and damage
because, it appears to me, he is more interested in quantity rather than
quality.

Notes:

http://www.familysearch.org
FRIZ SCHWALD
Spouse: ANNA BARBARA HOMBERGER Family
Marriage: 17 FEB 1801 Evangelisch, Wies, Loerrach, Baden
--------------------------------------------------------------
Messages:
Extracted marriage record for locality listed in the record.
Source Information:
Batch No.: Dates: Source Call No.: Type: Printout Call No.: Typ

M936741 1738 - 1833 1189732

Other Events:

• Also Known As: Johann Georg or Hanns Jerg
• Occupation: Farmer

Notes:

Occupation: Farmer

familysearch.org
Hanns Jerg SCHWALD
Sex: M
Marriage(s):
Spouse: Anna Maria WAGNER
Marriage: 27 Sep 1768
Evangelisch, Wies, Loerrach, Baden

Anna Barbara SCHWALD
Sex: F
Event(s):
Birth: 29 Oct 1778
Fischingen, Loerrach, Baden
Parents:
Father: Johann Georg SCHWALD
Mother: Anna Maria WAGNER

LDS Microfilm Batch number: Dates Source
Call No. Type Printout Call No. Type
M934123 1739-1815 1189428

NOTE: This is the original marriage record of Hans Jerg (Johann Georg) Schwald and Anna Maria Wagnerin as related by David....found in the LDS Microfilm.

-----Original Message-----
> From: dgudeman
> Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 6:52 PM
> To: Roderick Schwald
> Subject: Hans Jerg Schwald
>
> Hans Jerg (Johann Georg) Schwald of Fischenberg married Anna
> Maria Wagnerin of Malsburg on December 27, 1768, in Demburg,
> Baden, Germany.
The parents of Hans Jerg were Hans Jerg
> Schwald (shown as Schwaldin) of Fischenburg and Maria Lenzin
> of Schwand (Elbenschwand), Baden, Germany. Hans Jerg (the
> son) was a farmer. Anna Maria's father, Hans Jacob Wagner,
> was a Nagler, a blacksmith who made nails. The children of
> Hans Jerg and Anna Maria were: 1. Johann Georg, born in
> Fischenberg on June 30, 1769.2. Johann Jacob, born in
> Fischenberg on June 16, 1770.3. Friedrich, born in
> Fischenberg on September 13, 1772, and died on December 19,
> 1839.4. Maria, born in Fischenberg on December 18, 1773.5.
> Simon, born in Fischingberg on April 16, 1775, and died July
> 9, 1834.6. Michael, born in Fischenberg on March 21, 1777.7.
> Anna Barbara, born in Fischenberg on September 29, 1778.8.
> Kunigunda, born in Fischenberg on May 18, 1780.9.
> Friedolinus, born in Fischenberg on October 30, 1781, and
> died in Tegernau (?) on December 12, 1830.10. Matthias, born
> in Fischenberg on August 10, 1784, and died in Sallneck on
> November 28, 1844.11. Anna Maria, born in Fischenberg on
> November 7, 1785.12. A daughter born in Fischenburg on
> September 12, 1788. The child was still born.

Name:
NAME VARIATIONS:
- Hanns Jerg SCHWALD; Marr. record

Johann married WAGNER, Anna Maria 27 Sep 1768, Wies, Loerrach, Baden, Germany. Anna (daughter of WAGNER, Johann "Hans" Jacob and OSSWALD, Barbara) was born 27 Feb 1745, Malsburg, Kaltenbach, Baden, Germany; died 31 Oct 1799, Wies, Loerrach, Baden, Germany. [Group Sheet]

Notes:

Conflicting birth town.

Or...Malsburg, Kaltenbach, Germany

Am using Fred Wehrle's information
Wagner, Anna Maria, <7989>
* : 27 Feb 1745 Malsburg + : 31 Okt 1799 Fischenbe
V: Wagner, Johann Jacob M: Osswald, Barbara

oo 27.09.1768 Tegernau Johann Georg Schwald v.Fischenberg

From: "dave gudeman"
To: "Janet"
Subject: Re: Anna Maria Wagner
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 18:59:26 -0500

It may well be that Hans Jacob and Barbara were married in Vogelbach, but the record of their marriage does not so state. Both Vogelbach and Kaltenbach have churches, and, since Hans Jacob was from Kaltenbach, I felt that the odds favored the Kaltenbach church. Keep in mind that the little church in Vogelbach kept the vital records of both churches, and it may well be that Fred is confusing the place of recording with the place where the ceremony was performed. But surely, Fred must be well familiar with the fact that the Vogelbach church was the custodian of the records for both churches.
Neither does the marriage record reveal that Hans Jacob was a Vogt, which makes me wonder all the more what set of records Fred is working with.
A Vogt is somewhat like a Mayor. A Vogtei is something like an administrative office. The little village of Vogelbach had a stature out of proportion to its size. In addition to the Vogelbach and Kaltenbach churches, Vogelbach was the custodian of the records also for the Marzell church until the latter part of the 18th century, when Marzell started keeping its own records. I have a theory for the elevated position of Vogelbach. The Sausenburg Casthe is across a valley from Vogelbach and, in fact, the ruins can be seen from Vogelbach to this day. I believe that, because of its proximity to the castle, it was assigned the Vogtei centuries ago and, with it, the responibility for keeping the vital records.

Notes:

Married:
MARRIAGE DATE DISCREPANCY:
- 27 Dec 1768; Fred Wehrle, German author and historian

MARRIAGE PLACE DISCREPANCY:
Demberg, Tegernau, Baden, Germany

Am using the information from Fred Wehrle

Other Events:

• Occupation: Schuhmacher

Notes:

From: Wehrle
To: Janet
Subject: Re: Fwd: Our Relationship to Dieter
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 20:47:47 +020

Die vater und mutter von Anna Barbara Homberger: Jacob Homberger
> *19.06.1747 +01.12.1818 oo 22.10.1776 Anna Barbara (Lensin)falsch! Lais
richtig *17.09.1749 aber Lais>
> +22.12.1820.

KINDER von Jacob und Anna Barbara:
>
> 1. Maria Homberger *1777 +1791
> 2. Anna Barbara Homberger *1779 +1852
> 3. Jacob Homberger *1780 +
Johannes * 18.03.1782 + 07.08.1843 xxxxxxxxxx
4. Johann Georg Homberger *1783 +1791
> 5. Matthias Homberger *1786 +(1868) 1861! richtig
> 6. Johann Georg Homberger *(1796) 1791 ! richtig +1867

Jacob married LAIS, Anna Barbara 22 Oct 1776, Tegernau, Loerrach, Baden-Wurttemberg, Germany. Anna was born 17 Sep 1749, Neuenweg, Loerrach, Baden, Germany; died 22 Dec 1820, Wies, Loerrach, Baden, Germany. [Group Sheet]

Notes:

From: Wehrle
To: Janet
Subject: Re: Fwd: Our Relationship to Dieter
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 20:47:47 +020

Die vater und mutter von Anna Barbara Homberger: Jacob Homberger
> *19.06.1747 +01.12.1818 oo 22.10.1776 Anna Barbara (Lensin)falsch! Lais
richtig *17.09.1749 aber Lais>
> +22.12.1820.

KINDER von Jacob und Anna Barbara:
>
> 1. Maria Homberger *1777 +1791
> 2. Anna Barbara Homberger *1779 +1852
> 3. Jacob Homberger *1780 +
Johannes * 18.03.1782 + 07.08.1843 xxxxxxxxxx
4. Johann Georg Homberger *1783 +1791
> 5. Matthias Homberger *1786 +(1868) 1861! richtig
> 6. Johann Georg Homberger *(1796) 1791 ! richtig +1867