SCHWALD, Maria

Notes:

per Fred Wehrle Vogelbach/Marzell OSB pg. 82


Birth:
Birth day between 13 & 18th

Maria married DEISS, Johann Georg 21 Feb 1796, Kaltenbach, Baden, Germany. Johann was born 11 Mar 1774, Kaltenbach, Baden, Germany; died 17 Mar 1854, Obereggen, Germany. [Group Sheet]

Notes:

per Fred Wehrle Vogelbach/Marzell OSB pg. 82

1. DEISS, Maria Barbara was born 26 Aug 1795, Wies, Loerrach, Baden, Germany; died 24 Jul 1866, Kaltenbach, Baden, Germany.
2. DEISS, Kunigunde was born 26 Sep 1797, Kaltenbach, Baden, Germany; died 27 Oct 1811, Kaltenbach, Baden, Germany.
3. DEISS, Johann Georg was born 24 Oct 1799, Kaltenbach, Baden, Germany; died 30 May 1800, Kaltenbach, Baden, Germany.
4. DEISS, Anna was born 14 Apr 1801, Kaltenbach, Baden, Germany; died 12 Mar 1851, Marzell, Loerrach, Baden, Germany.
5. DEISS, Maria was born 10 Sep 1803, Kaltenbach, Baden, Germany; died 16 Jul 1812, Kaltenbach, Baden, Germany.
6. DEISS, Johann Georg was born 10 Nov 1805, Kaltenbach, Baden, Germany; died 21 Jan 1857, Kaltenbach, Baden, Germany.
7. DEISS, Verena was born 22 Jul 1808, Kaltenbach, Baden, Germany; died , Kuehlenbronn, Germany.
8. DEISS, Johann Jacob was born 29 Jun 1810, Kaltenbach, Baden, Germany; died 7 Jan 1812, Kaltenbach, Baden, Germany.
9. DEISS, Johann Jacob was born 13 Mar 1813, Kaltenbach, Baden, Germany; died 9 Jan 1877, Marzell, Loerrach, Baden, Germany.
10. DEISS, Matthias was born 11 Oct 1814, Kaltenbach, Baden, Germany.
11. DEISS, Johannes was born 5 Mar 1821, Kaltenbach, Baden, Germany; died , Obereggen, Germany.

Other Events:

• Also Known As: Johann Georg or Hanns Jerg
• Occupation: Farmer

Notes:

Occupation: Farmer

familysearch.org
Hanns Jerg SCHWALD
Sex: M
Marriage(s):
Spouse: Anna Maria WAGNER
Marriage: 27 Sep 1768
Evangelisch, Wies, Loerrach, Baden

Anna Barbara SCHWALD
Sex: F
Event(s):
Birth: 29 Oct 1778
Fischingen, Loerrach, Baden
Parents:
Father: Johann Georg SCHWALD
Mother: Anna Maria WAGNER

LDS Microfilm Batch number: Dates Source
Call No. Type Printout Call No. Type
M934123 1739-1815 1189428

NOTE: This is the original marriage record of Hans Jerg (Johann Georg) Schwald and Anna Maria Wagnerin as related by David....found in the LDS Microfilm.

-----Original Message-----
> From: dgudeman
> Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 6:52 PM
> To: Roderick Schwald
> Subject: Hans Jerg Schwald
>
> Hans Jerg (Johann Georg) Schwald of Fischenberg married Anna
> Maria Wagnerin of Malsburg on December 27, 1768, in Demburg,
> Baden, Germany.
The parents of Hans Jerg were Hans Jerg
> Schwald (shown as Schwaldin) of Fischenburg and Maria Lenzin
> of Schwand (Elbenschwand), Baden, Germany. Hans Jerg (the
> son) was a farmer. Anna Maria's father, Hans Jacob Wagner,
> was a Nagler, a blacksmith who made nails. The children of
> Hans Jerg and Anna Maria were: 1. Johann Georg, born in
> Fischenberg on June 30, 1769.2. Johann Jacob, born in
> Fischenberg on June 16, 1770.3. Friedrich, born in
> Fischenberg on September 13, 1772, and died on December 19,
> 1839.4. Maria, born in Fischenberg on December 18, 1773.5.
> Simon, born in Fischingberg on April 16, 1775, and died July
> 9, 1834.6. Michael, born in Fischenberg on March 21, 1777.7.
> Anna Barbara, born in Fischenberg on September 29, 1778.8.
> Kunigunda, born in Fischenberg on May 18, 1780.9.
> Friedolinus, born in Fischenberg on October 30, 1781, and
> died in Tegernau (?) on December 12, 1830.10. Matthias, born
> in Fischenberg on August 10, 1784, and died in Sallneck on
> November 28, 1844.11. Anna Maria, born in Fischenberg on
> November 7, 1785.12. A daughter born in Fischenburg on
> September 12, 1788. The child was still born.

Name:
NAME VARIATIONS:
- Hanns Jerg SCHWALD; Marr. record

Johann married WAGNER, Anna Maria 27 Sep 1768, Wies, Loerrach, Baden, Germany. Anna (daughter of WAGNER, Johann "Hans" Jacob and OSSWALD, Barbara) was born 27 Feb 1745, Malsburg, Kaltenbach, Baden, Germany; died 31 Oct 1799, Wies, Loerrach, Baden, Germany. [Group Sheet]

Notes:

Conflicting birth town.

Or...Malsburg, Kaltenbach, Germany

Am using Fred Wehrle's information
Wagner, Anna Maria, <7989>
* : 27 Feb 1745 Malsburg + : 31 Okt 1799 Fischenbe
V: Wagner, Johann Jacob M: Osswald, Barbara

oo 27.09.1768 Tegernau Johann Georg Schwald v.Fischenberg

From: "dave gudeman"
To: "Janet"
Subject: Re: Anna Maria Wagner
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 18:59:26 -0500

It may well be that Hans Jacob and Barbara were married in Vogelbach, but the record of their marriage does not so state. Both Vogelbach and Kaltenbach have churches, and, since Hans Jacob was from Kaltenbach, I felt that the odds favored the Kaltenbach church. Keep in mind that the little church in Vogelbach kept the vital records of both churches, and it may well be that Fred is confusing the place of recording with the place where the ceremony was performed. But surely, Fred must be well familiar with the fact that the Vogelbach church was the custodian of the records for both churches.
Neither does the marriage record reveal that Hans Jacob was a Vogt, which makes me wonder all the more what set of records Fred is working with.
A Vogt is somewhat like a Mayor. A Vogtei is something like an administrative office. The little village of Vogelbach had a stature out of proportion to its size. In addition to the Vogelbach and Kaltenbach churches, Vogelbach was the custodian of the records also for the Marzell church until the latter part of the 18th century, when Marzell started keeping its own records. I have a theory for the elevated position of Vogelbach. The Sausenburg Casthe is across a valley from Vogelbach and, in fact, the ruins can be seen from Vogelbach to this day. I believe that, because of its proximity to the castle, it was assigned the Vogtei centuries ago and, with it, the responibility for keeping the vital records.

Notes:

Married:
MARRIAGE DATE DISCREPANCY:
- 27 Dec 1768; Fred Wehrle, German author and historian

MARRIAGE PLACE DISCREPANCY:
Demberg, Tegernau, Baden, Germany

Am using the information from Fred Wehrle

Notes:

Per LDS site:
Johann Georg SCHWALD
Sex: M

Marriage(s):
Spouse: Maria LENZ
Marriage: 17 Sep 1738
Evangelisch, Wies, Loerrach, Baden
-----Original Message-----
From: christof schwald
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 7:13 PM
To: Roderick Schwald
Cc: Janet
Subject: Re: I am Back

Hi Roderick,
I'm glad to hear good news about your wife doing well and I have news for you:

Look in the old mail and find Johann Georg Schwald
He was born in 1715 in Gersbach and married Maria Lentz from Schwand in 1737. They lived in Wies-Fischenberg (You've been there the day we met first) and had eight children:
Magdalena * 1738 Schwand
Anna * 1741 Schwand + 1752
Maria * 1742 Fischenberg + 1742
Johann Georg *1743 Fischenberg (your line)
Johann Jacob * 1745 Fischenberg
Maria * 1746 Fischenberg
Margaretha * 1749 Fischenberg
Johann Friedrich * 1751 Fischenberg (my line)

The parents of Johann Georg Schwald were:
Michael Schwald, * 1685 Neuenweg, + 1745 Gersbach
married in 1711 in Gersbach
Anna Kneusslin, * 1682 Gersbach, + 1759 Gersbach, daughter of Hans Kneusslin and Anna Meyer in Gersbach

The parents of Michael Schwald were:
Bernhard Schwald, * 1655 Neuenweg, + ?
married 1677 in Neuenweg
Catharina Bleickner, *1656 in Neuenweg, daughter of Jacob Bleickner and Verena Zeh from Neuenweg

The parents of Bernhard Schwald were:
Jacob Schwald, *1614 in Neuenweg, + 1686 in Neuenweg
married 1643 in Neuenweg
Maria Kiefer, *1613 in Neuenweg, + 1677 in Neuenweg
They had twelve children!

I think Werner Schwalds line goes from one of this children. May be all Schwald lines go from this Jacob Schwald. There are no church books before 1600, so we can't go on now! I think it's ok here. Not everybody has a Stammbaum to 1613 but we have!

Another interesting thing is, how Michael Schwald came to Gersbach wich is about two days-walks from Neuenweg. Gersbach is like Neuenweg in The high black-forrest. I think that he had to go there as a boy in the summertime to keep care for the cows of other farmers. Poor people with many children used to give some children away in summer to other farmers. So they didn't have to feed them this time. Often those "cowboys" went all summer to the same farm and often married in the village or even in the family of the farmer.
Michaels son Johann Georg went back to the area his father was born. May be he found his wife when he joined a wedding of a cousin or an other festival.

Now you can complete your Stammbaum with 12 generations! Wish you a good work! Christof

From: dgudeman
Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2002 3:49 PM
To: Roderick Schwald
Subject: Johann Georg Schwald -Maria Lenzin family
Per Christof:
Look in the old mail and find Johann Georg Schwald
He was born in 1715 in Gersbach and married Maria Lentz from Schwand in 1737. They lived in Wies-Fischenberg (You've been there the day we met first) and had eight children:
Magdalena * 1738 Schwand
Anna * 1741 Schwand + 1752
Maria * 1742 Fischenberg + 1742
Johann Georg *1743 Fischenberg (your line)
Johann Jacob * 1745 Fischenberg
Maria * 1746 Fischenberg
Margaretha * 1749 Fischenberg
Johann Friedrich * 1751 Fischenberg (my line)

The parents of Johann Georg Schwald were:
Michael Schwald, * 1685 Neuenweg, + 1745 Gersbach
married in 1711 in Gersbach
Anna Kneusslin, * 1682 Gersbach, + 1759 Gersbach, daughter of Hans Kneusslin and Anna Meyer in Gersbach

The parents of Michael Schwald were:
Bernhard Schwald, * 1655 Neuenweg, + ?
married 1677 in Neuenweg
Catharina Bleickner, *1656 in Neuenweg, daughter of Jacob Bleickner and Verena Zeh from Neuenweg

The parents of Bernhard Schwald were:
Jacob Schwald, *1614 in Neuenweg, + 1686 in Neuenweg
married 1643 in Neuenweg
Maria Kiefer, *1613 in Neuenweg, + 1677 in Neuenweg
They had twelve children!

I think Werner Schwalds line goes from one of this children. May be all Schwald lines go from this Jacob Schwald. There are no church books before 1600, so we can't go on now! I think it's ok here. Not everybody has a Stammbaum to 1613 but we have!

Another interesting thing is, how Michael Schwald came to Gersbach wich is about two days-walks from Neuenweg. Gersbach is like Neuenweg in The high black-forrest. I think that he had to go there as a boy in the summertime to keep care for the cows of other farmers. Poor people with many children used to give some children away in summer to other farmers. So they didn't have to feed them this time. Often those "cowboys" went all summer to the same farm and often married in the village or even in the family of the farmer.
Michaels son Johann Georg went back to the area his father was born. May be he found his wife when he joined a wedding of a cousin or an other festival.

per email:
Johann Georg Schwald of Grenzach married Maria Lenzin of Schwand in Wies on September 17, 1738. The father of Johann Georg was Michel Schwaldin of Grenzach (shown as Greszach) and an unnamed mother. The father of Maria was Michel Lenzin and an unnamed mother. The children of Johann Georg and Maria were:

1. Maria, born in Fischenberg on September 20, 1742. (The father was shown as Hans Jerg.)
2. Johann Georg, born in Fischenberg on September 10, 1743. (The father is shown as Hans Jerg.)
3. Johann Jacob, born in Fischenberg on January 11, 1744. (The father was shown as Johann Georg.)
4. Maria, born in Fischenberg on August 6, 1746. (The father was shown as Johann Georg.)
5. Margaretha, born in Fischenberg on February 20, 1748. (The father was shown as Johann Georg.)
6. Friedrich, born in Fischenberg on May, 24, 1750. (The father was shown as Hans Georg.)

All data are from roll #1189732.

I suspect that other children were born between 1738 and 1742 in, perhaps, Grenzach or Schwand. It was highly unusual for a couple to wait four years before having their first child, and it was even not at all uncommon for the bride to be pregnant at the time of the marriage.

What micro-film rolls have you ordered?

I have some reservations about Grenzach. It is spelled in an unusual way on the marriage record and it is a long way from Fischenberg and Schwand. Althoug there is no other name spelled even close to it, further research needs to verify it.

NOTE: LAST BORN SON...IS CHRISTOF'S ANCESTOR...CHRISTOF'S BRANCH STARTS HERE

Johann Georg SCHWALD
Sex: M

Marriage(s):
Spouse: Maria LENZ
Marriage: 17 Sep 1738
Evangelisch, Wies, Loerrach, Baden
Batch number: Dates Source Call No. Type Printout Call No. Type
M936741 1738-1833 1189732

Birth:
BIRTH DATE DISCREPANCIES:
- 29 Apr 1715; Bap. record (ancestry.com)

Name:
NAME VARIATIONS:
- Hanß [Hanss] Jerg SCHWALD; Bap. record (ancestry.com)

Johann married LENTZ, Maria 17 Sep 1738, Wies, Loerrach, Baden, Germany. Maria was born Abt 1717, Wies, Loerrach, Baden, Germany. [Group Sheet]

Notes:

Per LDS Site:
Johann Georg SCHWALD
Sex: M

Marriage(s):
Spouse: Maria LENZ
Marriage: 17 Sep 1738
Evangelisch, Wies, Loerrach, Baden

Possible her record??
Maria LENTZ (AFN: 104R-NRS) Pedigree
Sex: F Family

Event(s):
Birth: 28 Sep 1717
Sallneck, Loerrach, Baden, Germany

Parents:
Father: Frederich Aka Fritz LENTZ (AFN: 104R-PCH) Family
Mother: Anna TREFZER (AFN: 104R
Maria LENTZ (AFN: 104R-NRS) Pedigree
Sex: F

Submitter(s):
KAREN M. URICK Microfilm: NONE
109 WEST MAIN STREET
BOX 609
HART MI Submission: AF93-102752
USA 49420


Ortssippenbuch of Tegernau

Other Events:

• Occupation: Bauer, Vogt, ?Nagler

Notes:

Fred Wehrle Vogelbach/Marzell OSB pg. 503

From: "dave gudeman"
To: "Janet Schwald"
Subject: Anna Maria Wagner
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 06:01:04 -0500

As Fred Wehrle states, the mother of Anna Maria Wagner (Johann Georg Schwald's wife) was Barbara Osswaldin. She was a daughter of Simon Osswald of Kaltenbach. Hans Jacob Wagner of Malsburg (spelled Mahlsburg) and Barbara Osswaldin were married on June 16, 1744, probably in Kaltenbach, since Malsburg has no church. Fred emphatically states that Johann Jakob Wagner was a farmer, not a Nagler. I wonder where he picked up this information. On the marriage record of Johann George Schwald and Anna Maria Wagner in 1764, it very clearly states Hans Jacob Wagner was a Nagler. I found no mention that he was a farmer.

Occupation: Nagler, blacksmith who made nails

-----Original Message-----
> From: dgudeman
> Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 6:52 PM
> To: Roderick Schwald
> Subject: Hans Jerg Schwald


Anna Maria's father, Hans Jacob Wagner,
> was a Nagler, a blacksmith who made nails.

Per Rod's Website:
(Anna Maria Wagner (daughter of Hans Jacob Wagner and Anna Barbara Lensin)14. She married Johann "Hans" Georg Schwald on 27 September 1768 in Demberg, Germany14, son of Johann Georg Schwald and Maria Lenzin.

More About Anna Maria Wagner and Johann "Hans" Georg Schwald:
Marriage: 27 September 1768, Demberg, Germany.

Children of Anna Maria Wagner and Johann "Hans" Georg Schwald are:
Johann Georg Schwald, b. 30 June 1769, Fischenberg, Germany.
Johann Jacob Schwald, b. 16 June 1770, Fischenberg, Germany.
+Friedrich "Fritz or Friz" Schwald, b. 13 September 1772, Fischenberg, Germany, d. 19 December 1839.)

Hans Jacob Wagner. He married Anna Barbara Lensin.

Notes for Hans Jacob Wagner:
Occupation was a Nagler (a Blacksmith who made nails)

Children of Hans Jacob Wagner and Anna Barbara Lensin are:
+Anna Maria Wagner

Corrected:
From: Wehrle
To: Janet
Cc: H.Trurnit
Subject: Re: Fwd: Our Relationship to Dieter
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 09:42:03 +0200

falsch: Johann Jakob Wagner oo Anna Barbara Lensin
richtig: Johann Jakob Wagner oo 16.06.1744 Vogelbach Barbara Osswald !!
er war nicht Nagler, sondern Bauer in Malsburg und Vogt der Vogt
Vogelbach

From: "dave gudeman"
To: "Janet Schwald"
Subject: Anna Barbara Lensin
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 09:21:45

Anna Barbara Lensin should be removed until the true mother can be established. Wehrle contends that she was Barbara Osswald, but I have some reservations. He emphatically states that the father was a farmer, not a blacksmith; whereas, the marriage record of Johann Georg Schwald to Anna Maria Wagnerin in 1768 very clearly shows that her father was "Hans Jacob Wagner a Nagler in Malhsburg". The marriage took place in Demburg.

Fred Wehrle's List-3~12.wps
0 0 Wagner, Johann Jacob, Vogt <7951>
* : 11 Okt 1717 Malsburg + : 31 Jul 1802 Malsbu
V: Wagner, Johannes M: Hafner, Verena
oo: 1) 16 Jun 1744 Vogelbach ?2059?
0 0 Osswald, Barbara, <546
* : 1725 Kaltenbachuvw + : 5 Mar 1785 Malsbu
V: Osswald Simon M: Wagner, An

KINDER:
1. Wagner, Anna Maria, * 27 Feb 1745+ 1799 <7989>
2. Wagner, Johannes, * 21 Feb 1746+ 1748 <7990>
3. Wagner, Verena, * 9 Apr 1747+ 1775 <7991>
4. Wagner, Barbara, * 28 Feb 1749+ 1750 <7992>
5. Wagner, Simon, * 18 Sep 1750+ 1795 <7993>
6. Wagner, Johann Jacob, Vogt * 4 Feb 1753+ 1825 <7994>
7. Wagner, Kunigunde, * 16 Sep 1758+ 1775 <7995>
8. Wagner, Friedrich, Gerichter * 27 Dez 1766+ 1838 <7996>

From: "dave gudeman"
To: "Janet"
Subject: Re: Anna Maria Wagner
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 18:59:26 -0500

It may well be that Hans Jacob and Barbara were married in Vogelbach, but the record of their marriage does not so state. Both Vogelbach and Kaltenbach have churches, and, since Hans Jacob was from Kaltenbach, I felt that the odds favored the Kaltenbach church. Keep in mind that the little church in Vogelbach kept the vital records of both churches, and it may well be that Fred is confusing the place of recording with the place where the ceremony was performed. But surely, Fred must be well familiar with the fact that the Vogelbach church was the custodian of the records for both churches.
Neither does the marriage record reveal that Hans Jacob was a Vogt,
which makes me wonder all the more what set of records Fred is working with.
A Vogt is somewhat like a Mayor. A Vogtei is something like an administrative office.
The little village of Vogelbach had a stature out of proportion to its size. In addition to the
Vogelbach and Kaltenbach churches, Vogelbach was the custodian of the records also for the Marzell church until
the latter part of the 18th century, when Marzell started keeping its own records. I have a theory for the elevated
position of Vogelbach. The Sausenburg Casthe is across a valley from Vogelbach and, in fact, the ruins can be seen
from Vogelbach to this day. I believe that, because of its proximity to the castle, it was assigned the Vogtei
centuries ago and, with it, the responibility for keeping
the vital records.

Johann married OSSWALD, Barbara 16 Jun 1744, Vogelbach, Loerrach, Baden, Germany. Barbara (daughter of OSSWALD, Simon and WAGNER, Anna) was born 1725, Kaltenbach, Baden, Germany; died 5 Mar 1785, Malsburg, Kaltenbach, Baden, Germany. [Group Sheet]

Notes:

Per Rod's Website:
(Anna Maria Wagner (daughter of Hans Jacob Wagner and Anna Barbara Lensin)14. She married Johann "Hans" Georg Schwald on 27 September 1768 in Demberg, Germany14,
son of Johann Georg Schwald and Maria Lenzin.

More About Anna Maria Wagner and Johann "Hans" Georg Schwald:
Marriage: 27 September 1768, Demberg, Germany.

Children of Anna Maria Wagner and Johann "Hans" Georg Schwald are:
Johann Georg Schwald, b. 30 June 1769, Fischenberg, Germany.
Johann Jacob Schwald, b. 16 June 1770, Fischenberg, Germany.
+Friedrich "Fritz or Friz" Schwald, b. 13 September 1772, Fischenberg, Germany, d. 19 December 1839.)

Hans Jacob Wagner. He married Anna Barbara Lensin.

Notes for Hans Jacob Wagner:
Occupation was a Nagler (a Blacksmith who made nails)

Children of Hans Jacob Wagner and Anna Barbara Lensin are:
+Anna Maria Wagner

Corrected:
From: Wehrle
To: Janet
Cc: H.Trurnit
Subject: Re: Fwd: Our Relationship to Dieter
From: "dave gudeman"
To: "Janet
Subject: Anna Maria Wagner
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 06:01:04 -0500

As Fred Wehrle states, the mother of Anna Maria Wagner (Johann Georg Schwald's wife) was Barbara Osswaldin. She was a daughter of Simon Osswald of Kaltenbach. Hans Jacob Wagner of Malsburg (spelled Mahlsburg) and Barbara Osswaldin were married on June 16, 1744, probably in Kaltenbach, since Malsburg has no church. Fred emphatically states that Johann Jakob Wagner was a farmer, not a Nagler. I wonder where he picked up this information. On the marriage record of Johann George Schwald and Anna Maria Wagner in 1764, it very clearly states Hans Jacob Wagner was a Nagler. I found no mention that he was a farmer.

Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 09:42:03 +0200

falsch: Johann Jakob Wagner oo Anna Barbara Lensin
richtig: Johann Jakob Wagner oo 16.06.1744 Vogelbach Barbara Osswald !!
er war nicht Nagler, sondern Bauer in Malsburg und Vogt der Vogt
Vogelbach

Per Fred Wehrle's list 3~12.wps
0 0 Wagner, Johann Jacob, Vogt <7951>
* : 11 Okt 1717 Malsburg + : 31 Jul 1802 Malsbu
V: Wagner, Johannes M: Hafner, Vere

oo: 1) 16 Jun 1744 Vogelbach ?2059?
0 0 Osswald, Barbara, <546
* : 1725 Kaltenbachuvw + : 5 Mar 1785 Malsbu
V: Osswald Simon M: Wagner, An

KINDER:
1. Wagner, Anna Maria, * 27 Feb 1745+ 1799 <7989>
2. Wagner, Johannes, * 21 Feb 1746+ 1748 <7990>
3. Wagner, Verena, * 9 Apr 1747+ 1775 <7991>
4. Wagner, Barbara, * 28 Feb 1749+ 1750 <7992>
5. Wagner, Simon, * 18 Sep 1750+ 1795 <7993>
6. Wagner, Johann Jacob, Vogt * 4 Feb 1753+ 1825 <7994>
7. Wagner, Kunigunde, * 16 Sep 1758+ 1775 <7995>
8. Wagner, Friedrich, Gerichter * 27 Dez 1766+ 1838 <7996>

From: "dave gudeman"
To: "Janet"
Subject: Re: Anna Maria Wagner
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 18:59:26 -0500

It may well be that Hans Jacob and Barbara were married in Vogelbach, but the record of their marriage does not so state. Both Vogelbach and Kaltenbach have churches, and, since Hans Jacob was from Kaltenbach, I felt that the odds favored the Kaltenbach church. Keep in mind that the little church in Vogelbach kept the vital records of both churches, and it may well be that Fred is confusing the place of recording with the place where the ceremony was performed. But surely, Fred must be well familiar with the fact that the Vogelbach church was the custodian of the records for both churches.
Neither does the marriage record reveal that Hans Jacob was a Vogt, which makes me wonder all the more what set of records Fred is working with.
A Vogt is somewhat like a Mayor. A Vogtei is something like an administrative office. The little village of Vogelbach had a stature out of proportion to its size. In addition to the Vogelbach and Kaltenbach churches, Vogelbach was the custodian of the records also for the Marzell church until the latter part of the 18th century, when Marzell started keeping its own records. I have a theory for the elevated position of Vogelbach. The Sausenburg Casthe is across a valley from Vogelbach and, in fact, the ruins can be seen from Vogelbach to this day. I believe that, because of its proximity to the castle, it was assigned the Vogtei centuries ago and, with it, the responibility for keeping the vital records.

From: "dave gudeman"
To: "Janet
Subject: Anna Maria Wagner
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 06:01:04 -0500

As Fred Wehrle states, the mother of Anna Maria Wagner (Johann Georg Schwald's wife) was Barbara Osswaldin. She was a daughter of Simon Osswald of Kaltenbach. Hans Jacob Wagner of Malsburg (spelled Mahlsburg) and Barbara Osswaldin were married on June 16, 1744, probably in Kaltenbach, since Malsburg has no church. Fred emphatically states that Johann Jakob Wagner was a farmer, not a Nagler. I wonder where he picked up this information. On the marriage record of Johann George Schwald and Anna Maria Wagner in 1764, it very clearly states Hans Jacob Wagner was a Nagler. I found no mention that he was a farmer.

Notes:

From: dgudeman
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 10:22 PM
To: Roderick Schwald
Subject: Michel Schwald

The information on the Michel Schwald family is found in LDS File: roll #1189745

Anna KNUSSLEIN per Hanno in his revised version: Incorrect other previous names per Christof
see Excel lineage.xls Revised Schwald Christof worksheet

From: dgudeman
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 8:11 PM
To: Roderick Schwald
Subject: Michel Schwald

Your supposition was correct. The father of the Johann Georg who married Maria Lenzin in 1738 was from Gersbach, not Grenzach. It was spelled with "p" rather than "b" which looked very much like a "z". It is the influence of the German-Swiss on the South Black Forest dialect. It is not uncommon for bach to be spelled as pach in Switzerland, but quite uncommon in the South Black Forest, and even less common in the rest of Germany. My great -grandmother, Anna Maria Minger, was born in Limpach, Switerzerland. In some ways the South Black Forest is more Swiss than German, with Basel being the dominant city. When people from the South Black Forest travel to other parts of Germany they are often thought to be from Switzerland because of their dialect.

Michel Schwald married Anna (a name that looks something like Kuensslerin) of Gersbach on December 8, 1711, in Gersbach. The father of Michel was Bernhard (?) Schwald of, what appears to be, Kuernberg. The father of Anna was Hans (?) of Gersbach.

Michel's and Anna's children were:

1. Katharina, born in Gersbach in September, 1712.
2. Johann Bernhard (?), born in Gersbach on August 31, 1713.
3. Hanss Jerg, born in Gersbach on April 24, 1715.
4. Martin, born in Gersbach August 3, 1716.
5. Anna, born in Gersbach on January 23, 1719.
6. Andreas, born in Gersbach on July 17, 1720.
7. Catharina, born in Gersbach. ( I failed to get the date of birth but I believe it was in 1723.)
8. Johann Jacob, born in Gersbach January 17, 1726.

From: christof schwald
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 8:56 PM
To: Roderick Schwald
Subject: Re: Michel Schwald

Hi Roderick,
Michael Schwald's Mothers name was Anna Kneusslin, born 27.3.1682,
+ 4.9.1759
M. Schwald's father was Bernhardt Schwald from Neuenweg, born 8.8.1655,
+ ?, his mother Catharina Bleickner, b.7.5.1656
Bernhardt's father was Jacob Schwald, the eldest Schwald we know, born in Neuenweg in1614, mrried with Maria Kiefer, b. 1613
They had 12 children.
Later more.
Christof

From: dave gudeman
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2002 6:00 PM
To: Roderick Schwald
Cc: Janet Regan
Subject: Michael Schwald/Anna Knuesslerin family

Michael Schwald was born in Neuenweg on July 25,1685, to Bernhard Schwald and Katharina Blaitnerin.
He married Anna Knuesslerin of Gersbach in Gersbach on December 8, 1711 (he was shown as Michel). Their children were:

1. Katharina b.In September 1712 in Gersbach (The father was shown as Michel.)
2. Johann Bernhard b. August 21, 1713, in Gersbach (The father was shown as Michel.)
3. Hanss Jerg b. April 24, 1715 in Gersbach (The father was shown as Michel.)
4. Martin b. August 3, 1716, in Gersbach (The father was shown as Michel.)
5. Anna b. January 23, 1719, in Gersbach (The father was shown as Michel.)
6. Andreas b. July 17, 1720, in Gersbach (The father was shown as Michel.)
7. Catharina b. in 1723 in Gersbach (The father was shown as Michel.)
8. Johann Jacob January 17, 1726, in Gersbach (The father was shown as Michel.)

Notes: I believe that you should update your website to incorporate this additional information The name Blaitnerin was spelled every which way--Bleutnerin, Blautnerin, etc., but it was almost surely not Bleickner. I suggest that you use the Blaitnerin spelling, the name shown quite clearly on Michael's birth record 1685.
The name Knuesslerin is an usual name and is quite difficult to read. However, on the birth record of Katharina in 1712 it is clearly spelled Knuesslerin.

1. Maria b. September 28, 1678, in Neuenweg to Bernhard Schwald and Catharina Bleutnerin. Maria died on May 5, 1679.
2. Verena b. January 26, 1680, in Neuenweg to Bernhard Schwald and Catharina Bleutnerin
3 Jacobus b. August 19, 1681, in Neuenweg to Bernhard Schwald and Catharina Bleutnerin
4. Bernhardt b. April 22, 1683, in Neuenweg to Bernhardt Schwaldt (yes, Bernhardt Schwaldt) and Catharina Bleictnerin. Bernhardt died on May 1, 1694
5. Michael b. July 25, 1685, in Neuenweg to Bernhard Schwald and Katharina Blaitnerin
6. Johannes b. April 8, 1687, in Neuenweg to Bernhardt Schwald and Catharina Bleitnerin. Johannes died on April 27, 1687
7.Johannes b. July 1, 1688, in Neuenweg to Bernhardt Schwaldt and Catharina Bleitnerin
8. Martin b. January 23, 1690, in Neuenweg to Bernhardt Schwald and Catharina Bleitnerin

Birth:
BIRTHPLACE:
- AKA Kürnberg, Schopfheim, Lörrach, Baden-Württemberg, Germany

Christened:
BAPTISM PLACE:
- AKA Bürchau, Baden (Baden-Württemberg), Preußen (Germany) (ancestry.com
- AKA Bürchau, Lörrach, Baden-Württemberg, Germany

Buried:
BURIAL PLACE:
- AKA Haslach, Baden (Baden-Württemberg), Preußen (Germany) (ancestry.com)
- AKA Gersbach (A. Schopfheim), Schopfheim (ancestry.com)

Died:
DEATH PLACE:
- AKA Gersbach, Lörrach, Baden-Württemberg, Germany

Michael married KNUESSLERIN, Anna (Kneusslin) 8 Dec 1711, Gersbach, Loerrach, Baden, Germany. Anna (daughter of Living and Living) was born 27 Mar 1682, Gersbach, Loerrach, Baden, Germany; died 4 Sep 1759, Gersbach, Loerrach, Baden, Germany. [Group Sheet]

Notes:

Anna KNEUSSLEIN per Hanno

Anna Kneusslin per Christof

Anna Kuensslerin per David Gudeman

From: dave gudeman
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2002 6:00 PM
To: Roderick Schwald
Cc: Janet Regan
Subject: Michael Schwald/Anna Knuesslerin family

Michael Schwald was born in Neuenweg on July 25,1685, to Bernhard Schwald and Katharina Blaitnerin.
He married Anna Knuesslerin of Gersbach in Gersbach on December 8, 1711 (he was shown as Michel). Their children were:

1. Katharina b.In September 1712 in Gersbach (The father was shown as Michel.)
2. Johann Bernhard b. August 21, 1713, in Gersbach (The father was shown as Michel.)
3. Hanss Jerg b. April 24, 1715 in Gersbach (The father was shown as Michel.)
4. Martin b. August 3, 1716, in Gersbach (The father was shown as Michel.)
5. Anna b. January 23, 1719, in Gersbach (The father was shown as Michel.)
6. Andreas b. July 17, 1720, in Gersbach (The father was shown as Michel.)
7. Catharina b. in 1723 in Gersbach (The father was shown as Michel.)
8. Johann Jacob January 17, 1726, in Gersbach (The father was shown as Michel.)

Notes: I believe that you should update your website to incorporate this additional information The name Blaitnerin was spelled every which way--Bleutnerin, Blautnerin, etc., but it was almost surely not Bleickner. I suggest that you use the Blaitnerin spelling, the name shown quite clearly on Michael's birth record 1685.
The name Knuesslerin is an usual name and is quite difficult to read. However, on the birth record of Katharina in 1712 it is clearly spelled Knuesslerin.

Notes:

http://www.familysearch.org
MICHEL SCHWALD
Spouse: ANNA KNEUSSLIN Family
Marriage: 08 DEC 1711 Evangelisch, Gersbach, Loerrach, Baden
-----------------------------------------------------------
Messages:
Extracted marriage record for locality listed in the record.
Source Information:
Batch No.: Dates: Source Call No.: Type: Printout Call No.: Typ

M936671 1665 - 1811 1189745 Film NONE

Married:
MARRIAGE PLACE:
- AKA Gersbach (A. Schopfheim), Schopfheim (ancestry.com)
- AKA Gersbach, Lörrach, Baden-Württemberg, Germany

Other Events:

• Occupation: Geschworener/Juror

Notes:

Fred Wehrle Vogelbach/Marzell OSB pg. 500, 503

Per Fred Wehrle's 3~12.wps file:
0 0 Wagner, Johannes, Geschworener <7897>
* : 13 Aug 1692 Malsburg + : 10 Okt 1741 Malsbu
V: Wagner, Johannes M: Osswald, Magdale
oo: 1) 12 Mai 1716 Vogelbach ?2050?
0 0 Hafner, Verena, <2891>
* : 10 Sep 1695 Marzell + : 26 Jul 1775 Malsbu
V: Hafner Jacob M: Meyer, Anna
WEITERE EHEN:
oo: 1) 16 Jun 1744 Lacher, Fritz <4168> ?1070?
HISTORIE DES EHEMANNS:
22xGev.04.09.1708-18.11.1731;
HISTORIE DER EHEFRAU:
11xGev.29.11.1716-23.07.1738;

KINDER:
1. Wagner, Johann Jacob, Vogt * 11 Okt 1717+ 1802 <7951>
2. Wagner, Magdalena, * 26 Jan 1720+ 1735 <7952>
3. Wagner, Anna, * 1722+ 1786 <4972>
4. Wagner, Kunigunda, * 1724+ <7953>
5. Wagner, Barbara, * 1727+ 1757 <1376>
6. Wagner, Michael, * 1728+ 1741 <7954>
7. Wagner, Verena, * 20 Jul 1731+ 1732 <7955>
8. Wagner, Maria, * 12 Jun 1733+ 1751 <7956>
9. Wagner, Catharina, * 30 Nov 1735+ 1744 <7957>
10. Wagner, Eva, * 24 Aug 1738+ 1807 <1713>

Johannes married HAFNER, Verena 12 May 1716, Vogelbach, Loerrach, Baden, Germany. Verena (daughter of HAFNER, Jacob and MEYER, Anna) was born 10 Sep 1695, Marzell, Loerrach, Baden, Germany; died 26 Jul 1775, Malsburg, Kaltenbach, Baden, Germany. [Group Sheet]

Notes:

Fred Wehrle Vogelbach/Marzell OSB pg. 503

Per Fred Wehrle's 3~12.wps file:
0 0 Wagner, Johannes, Geschworener <7897>
* : 13 Aug 1692 Malsburg + : 10 Okt 1741 Malsbu
V: Wagner, Johannes M: Osswald, Magdale
oo: 1) 12 Mai 1716 Vogelbach ?2050?
0 0 Hafner, Verena, <2891>
* : 10 Sep 1695 Marzell + : 26 Jul 1775 Malsbu
V: Hafner Jacob M: Meyer, Anna
WEITERE EHEN:
oo: 1) 16 Jun 1744 Lacher, Fritz <4168> ?1070?
HISTORIE DES EHEMANNS:
22xGev.04.09.1708-18.11.1731;
HISTORIE DER EHEFRAU:
11xGev.29.11.1716-23.07.1738;

KINDER:
1. Wagner, Johann Jacob, Vogt * 11 Okt 1717+ 1802 <7951>
2. Wagner, Magdalena, * 26 Jan 1720+ 1735 <7952>
3. Wagner, Anna, * 1722+ 1786 <4972>
4. Wagner, Kunigunda, * 1724+ <7953>
5. Wagner, Barbara, * 1727+ 1757 <1376>
6. Wagner, Michael, * 1728+ 1741 <7954>
7. Wagner, Verena, * 20 Jul 1731+ 1732 <7955>
8. Wagner, Maria, * 12 Jun 1733+ 1751 <7956>
9. Wagner, Catharina, * 30 Nov 1735+ 1744 <7957>
10. Wagner, Eva, * 24 Aug 1738+ 1807 <1713>

Notes:

Fred Wehrle Vogelbach/Marzell OSB pg. 503

Other Events:

• Occupation: Geschworener/Juror
• Occupation: St. Blaes. Meyer/tithed food collector

Notes:

Occupation...St. Blaes. Meyer: Tithe collector of food from village for St. Blasen Monastery located in the Black Forest.

Per Fred Wehrle's notes:

0 0 Osswald, Simon, Geschworener, St. Blaes. Meyer <5428>
* : 25 Apr 1697 Kaltenbach + : 19 Sep 1770 Kaltenba
V: Osswald, Claus M: Schuster, Ursu

oo: 1) 20 Apr 1723 Vogtei Vogelbach "1396"
0 0 Wagner, Anna, <5461>
* : 7 Mar 1700 Sallneck + : 15 Jul 1759 Kaltenba
V: M:

KINDER:
1. Osswald, Maria, * 1724+ 1806 <2915>
2. Osswald, Barbara, * 1725+ 1785 <5462>
3. Osswald, Simon, * 1726+ 1782 <5463>
4. Osswald, Michael, * 1728+ 1801 <5464>
5. Osswald, Nicolaus, * 1730+ 1784 <2408>
6. Osswald, Anna, * 1733+ 1762 <5465>
7. Osswald, Regina, * 1735+ 1796 <4430>
8. Osswald, Johann Jacob, * 1737+ 1799 <5466>
9. Osswald, Bartholomaeus, * 1741+ 1803 <5467>
10. Osswald, Margaretha, * 1745+ 1800 <5468>

Per Fred Wehrle's 3~12.wps file:
0 0 Osswald, Simon, Geschworener, St. Blaes. Meyer <5428>
* : 25 Apr 1697 Kaltenbach + : 19 Sep 1770 Kaltenba
V: Osswald, Claus M: Schuster, Ursu

oo: 1) 20 Apr 1723 Vogtei Vogelbach ?1396?
0 0 Wagner, Anna, <5461>
* : 7 Mar 1700 Sallneck + : 15 Jul 1759 Kaltenba
V: M:

HISTORIE DES EHEMANNS:
17xGev.10.01.1720-25.04.1736; (ab 01.01.1737 St. Blaesischer Meyer)

HISTORIE DER EHEFRAU:
13xGev.18.06.1723-16.06.1737;

KINDER:
1. Osswald, Maria, * 1724+ 1806 <2915>
2. Osswald, Barbara, * 1725+ 1785 <5462>
3. Osswald, Simon, * 1726+ 1782 <5463>
4. Osswald, Michael, * 1728+ 1801 <5464>
5. Osswald, Nicolaus, * 1730+ 1784 <2408>
6. Osswald, Anna, * 1733+ 1762 <5465>
7. Osswald, Regina, * 1735+ 1796 <4430>
8. Osswald, Johann Jacob, * 1737+ 1799 <5466>
9. Osswald, Bartholomaeus, * 12 Nov 1741+ 1803 <5467>
10. Osswald, Margaretha, * 4 Mai 1745+ 1800 <5468>

From: "dave gudeman"
To: "Janet Schwald"
Subject: Anna Maria Wagner
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 06:01:04 -0500

As Fred Wehrle states, the mother of Anna Maria Wagner (Johann Georg Schwald's wife) was Barbara Osswaldin. She was a daughter of Simon Osswald of Kaltenbach. Hans Jacob Wagner of Malsburg (spelled Mahlsburg) and Barbara Osswaldin were married on June 16, 1744, probably in Kaltenbach, since Malsburg has no church. Fred emphatically states that Johann Jakob Wagner was a farmer, not a Nagler. I wonder where he picked up this information. On the marriage record of Johann George Schwald and Anna Maria Wagner in 1764, it very clearly states Hans Jacob Wagner was a Nagler. I found no mention that he was a farmer.

Simon married WAGNER, Anna 20 Apr 1723, Vogelbach, Loerrach, Baden, Germany. Anna was born 7 Mar 1700, Sallneck, Germany; died 15 Jul 1759, Kaltenbach, Baden, Germany. [Group Sheet]

Notes:

Per Fred Wehrle's notes:

0 0 Osswald, Simon, Geschworener, St. Blaes. Meyer <5428>
* : 25 Apr 1697 Kaltenbach + : 19 Sep 1770 Kaltenba
V: Osswald, Claus M: Schuster, Ursu

oo: 1) 20 Apr 1723 Vogtei Vogelbach "1396"
0 0 Wagner, Anna, <5461>
* : 7 Mar 1700 Sallneck + : 15 Jul 1759 Kaltenba
V: M:

KINDER:
1. Osswald, Maria, * 1724+ 1806 <2915>
2. Osswald, Barbara, * 1725+ 1785 <5462>
3. Osswald, Simon, * 1726+ 1782 <5463>
4. Osswald, Michael, * 1728+ 1801 <5464>
5. Osswald, Nicolaus, * 1730+ 1784 <2408>
6. Osswald, Anna, * 1733+ 1762 <5465>
7. Osswald, Regina, * 1735+ 1796 <4430>
8. Osswald, Johann Jacob, * 1737+ 1799 <5466>
9. Osswald, Bartholomaeus, * 1741+ 1803 <5467>
10. Osswald, Margaretha, * 1745+ 1800 <5468>

Per Fred Wehrle's 3~12.wps file:
0 0 Osswald, Simon, Geschworener, St. Blaes. Meyer <5428>
* : 25 Apr 1697 Kaltenbach + : 19 Sep 1770 Kaltenba
V: Osswald, Claus M: Schuster, Ursu

oo: 1) 20 Apr 1723 Vogtei Vogelbach ?1396?
0 0 Wagner, Anna, <5461>
* : 7 Mar 1700 Sallneck + : 15 Jul 1759 Kaltenba
V: M:

HISTORIE DES EHEMANNS:
17xGev.10.01.1720-25.04.1736; (ab 01.01.1737 St. Blaesischer Meyer)

HISTORIE DER EHEFRAU:
13xGev.18.06.1723-16.06.1737;

KINDER:
1. Osswald, Maria, * 1724+ 1806 <2915>
2. Osswald, Barbara, * 1725+ 1785 <5462>
3. Osswald, Simon, * 1726+ 1782 <5463>
4. Osswald, Michael, * 1728+ 1801 <5464>
5. Osswald, Nicolaus, * 1730+ 1784 <2408>
6. Osswald, Anna, * 1733+ 1762 <5465>
7. Osswald, Regina, * 1735+ 1796 <4430>
8. Osswald, Johann Jacob, * 1737+ 1799 <5466>
9. Osswald, Bartholomaeus, * 12 Nov 1741+ 1803 <5467>
10. Osswald, Margaretha, * 4 Mai 1745+ 1800 <5468>